Safe Speed Forums

I work as a recruitment consultant to the construction industry and there is one thing you have to have to be able to do the job, and that's your driving licence.

My colleague came back into the office in an absolute state yesterday, he had been stopped by the police for using his hand-held mobile - he had been followed for a mile by the police as they taped him doing it. The reason he was in a state was that unbeknownst to us he already had 6 points and not only had they "done" him for the phone use but he'd just spotted that they'd also written him up for two bald tyres as well.

So basically, he's looking at a trip to court, another 6 points and a ban under totting up. I've already told him to have a look at pepipoo/consult a solicitor but all he can see is that he's going to be banned and lose his job; so he's turned into a bit of a blubbering wreck and doesn't seem to be listening to advice.

The stupid thing is he has a handsfree kit but he doesn't like to use it

Summary,

He has 6 points and is looking at another 6 in one hit.
His contract of employment says instant dismissal if you lose your licence.
He's stupid (proved that by lying to the police, claimed he was talking to a pack of chewing gum for a mile) and I don't think he has the gumption to fight this off his own back.

Is there any calming advice I can give him on Monday that might just give him the spark of hope and get him to start thinking about how to save his licence. I know he's a prat, but if he looses his job now, I doubt he'll get another one soon. Our industry's a mess at the moment and there have been redundancies left right and centre, so I'm sure he wants his job.

Oh dear! This doesn't look good.

As the police seem to have reasonable evidence as to the offences then a plea of hardship to mitigate the eventual sentence may be the only option.

On the subject of Contracts of Employment, if this contains an explicit term which makes possession of a valid driving licence a condition then your employer will be within their rights to dismiss him. Whether this is "instant" will depend on the terms but generally this will be an irreparable breach of contract rather than summary dismissal and he should be entitled to notice. However, they may consider his actions gross misconduct.

As you point out, he is an idiot (and a pretty unobservant one at that).

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

This is on PH too, isn't it?

I hate to say it, but this is why Safespeed advocate increased trafpol presence.

Talking on the phone for a mile, while driving on two bald tyres? This is the kind of motorist I'd rather not share the road with.

Well, they would have to pay your notice - 4 weeks, but they'd put you on gardening leave at the same time, so it amounts to the same thing. Thanks very much, bye bye!

I never said he's a good driver, and normally I would agree whole heartedly with you, but he's a likeable muppet.

It may be on PH - I'm trying to throw the net wide for ideas.

Sorry, re-reading my post it came over a bit abruptly.

ah but is it ok to be put in danger by someone.. so long as they're likeable

is this good eveidence for using a handheld mobile being a massive distraction ?
must be if you can fail to notice a police car behind you for a mile!

(sorry can't help your colleague, he's right to be a blubbering wreck, that he has 6 points means he's had at least one warning to take more of an interest in his driving)

[/self righteousness]

Yes, that seems the only realistic option. He will need a good solicitor - there are plenty of cases of people avoiding totting-up bans through pleas of hardship, but he then really would be on "one strike and he's out" until the oldest points drop off his licence.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

You will not be able to get a definitive answer as there are too many variables and the sentence will depend on what evidence is given in court.

A few of the variables.
There is a general rule in court that, where more than one offence is sentenced on the same occasion, points are awarded on the most serious offence only. In this case the three offences, two tyres and the phone offence, each carry 3 points. So he could get 3 points.

An exception to that rule is when a court is of the opinion that the offending is of a nature and degree which warrants every offence being given points. As he has two different types of offence (two vehicle condition and one driver behaviour) that could happen, although this is unusual. He could get 9 points.

A lot will depend on the evidence. Is it just that he used the phone or is there evidence of substandard driving? If he was seen letting go of the steering wheel entirely, in order to hold the phone and change gear, that will make it worse.

How bad were the tyres? Just slightly under the limit or DOT. Or even with construction canvas and wires showing.

What was the weather like. Dry is one thing, pouring rain is another thing when considering bald tyres.

How much traffic? any pedestrians? near a school?

If the tyres and driving were bad enough, the bench could impose a ban for the offences. That would be a shortish ban, in the order of 2 to 6 weeks or so. On the other hand there would then be no points.


When a driver reaches 12 they are liable to a totting up ban. The bench will not impose a ban without checking to see if it would cause exceptional hardship. He could easily get 12 points and keep his licence. Exceptional hardship usually means to others. The punishment is meant to cause hardship to the offender.

To make sure everything is covered he either needs to take a lot of time doing his homework or he needs to employ a lawyer. The court will expect him to organise a lawyer before the day. They would probably put the case back for an hour or so to enable to consult somebody on the day but will almost certainly not adjourn to a later date, unless he intends to plead not guilty. Any lawyer who regularly appears in the courts would be capable of dealing with this sort of case.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Tyres were borderline - wrong side of the line though. Probably half a mm illegal. It was wet yesterday. It's been raining every afternoon this week in the south west. Not making pretty reading with the possible 9 points though. I think I might just go back to my original idea - get a good solicitor and prepare to beg the judge for a fine and not a ban.

You colleague's a prat alright, and really needs to check himself.

I've got a clean licence, I can afford to push certain "prosecution thresholds". If I had 6 points I'd keep a low profile, and jabbering away on a cellphone is hardly a slip.

Tyres are one of the most safety-critical parts of a car. The disc brakes, abs, esc and the rest of it is only as good as the level of grip the tyres afford it. I'm fastidious about tyres - my van got a puncture with 1,500 on it, mechanic said to me "It's right near the shoulder so I really shouldn't" so I said "Don't". £120, quite gutting. Now while we don't all have the $$$ to make sure everything about ones car is perfect, if you have to proportion money this is where it should go first.


Personally, I wonder if the "ease" with which our authorities are willing to criminalise drivers produces a mindset that no longer distinguishes between real safety issues and fine-culture induced penalties for menial transgressions. And, once "criminalised", people perhaps take a "lesser" view of themselves as drivers. One of my customers, a prominent shrink with many books to his name, agrees with me. Out of interest, what were the other 6 points for?

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

Half a mm illegal amounts to only about 1mm, in the wet, on half the tyres. Not good.
9 points from that scenario would be VERY unusual, but legally possible.

Its not a choice between a fine and a ban. There will be fine for the offences, plus court costs, plus the £15 victim surcharge. All based on a mixture of seriousness of offence and ability to pay. In addition there will be either points or a ban for the offences. If he gets points for the offences, even 3 will take him to totting level with the real possibility of a ban as well.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

I'll clarify - much bigger fine instead of the ban.

His current points were achieved by speeding. Two SP30s.

Edit to say:


I've had this on a few forums now fishing for ideas and with all the responses I think I'm going to just advise him to get a good solicitor on the case. Many thanks for the input and lets hope (whatever the outcome) he learns a good lesson from it.

You can't offer to pay a bigger fine in order to avoid a ban. Well, you could offer but they won't take you up on the offer. The two are different parts fo the sentence and not subject to trade off.

At least the other points are not for the same offences, so they won't count as aggravating factors for sentencing purposes. They will take notice of the points when considering whether or not to disqualify.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Earlier in this thread I posted this
As he has 6 points at the moment and not 9, this is wrong. Its 12 for totting.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

The plot thickens.

One of these uni students that are forever doing "studies" on just about anything and everything should do a thesis on it. I'm convinced there's something in it; for sure many on here talk of an overall decline in driving standards, in about the same same time period that statistically driven "discipline" of motorists has escalated, with the side effect of "criminalisation"

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

Ho ho go, panny writes that his "friend" is a numpty, and then writes this:



This "friend" of yours panny, know him well?

He may of course be referring to his original advice to his "numpty pal"

Proper legal advice - vital though.

Driving when holding a hand held phone - a

Driving on balding tyres - definitely a

As for the SP 30s - presumably cam flashed.. -:roll: Another failing. He did not learn much from them


And fisherman - he had 6 points already. He gets three for the phone holding for a whole mile without noting a police car behind him He gets three for the tyres. He should get three for each one .. but may get aways with three for the two and count himself lucky.

Personally if he drives for a living but never bothered checking the tyres - then he really is dangerous. We would have been over that car with a fine toothcomb - a nit picking one in case he failed to top up washer fluids and check the wipers as well. All designed to make the owner/driver sweat even more.

If he failed to inform boss of the SP 30 - he also broke his contract at that point as the boss has to to declare the company car drivers' points to the insurers just as all other policy holders. Tis why some firms require clean licences or one SP30 only when offering a drving job./job which requires driving for them.

Sympathy? None.

Advice? Needs a good lawyer.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
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A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Not automatically he won't. When more than one offence is committed at the same time, the rule is to impose points for the most serious offence only. There is a discretion to impose points for each offence but case law makes that an unusual situation. The offences would need to be of different kinds, as is the case here with a document offence and a vehicle condition offence, and the court would have to justify the extra points as proportional to the overall seriousness of the offence.

From a personal point of view, two bald tyres, a wet road and using a phone would probably make me think of a driving ban. Add in the lack of observation and I would definitely be thinking of a driving ban.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Weepej, I take my hat off to you sir, I had not spotted that until you quoted it

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If I was a magistrate, I would take a huge amount of convincing that a ban was not needed. Using a mobile and 2 bald tyres, he clearly thinks that keeping your car in a roadworthy condition and paying attention whilst driving don't apply to him!!

I have a question though, I was under the impression that for tyre offences, each tyre is a seperate offence, certainly all information (RTA etc.) I can find seems to support this, however some on here are suggesting that 2 bald tyres is one offence? Is this true?