Safe Speed Forums

Received in this PR from the Scottish SNP


I paid 1.199 today for fuel - it is utterly disgraceful !

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

You didn't.
You paid about 40p for fuel, the rest was tax.
Worse, you paid tax on tax.

_________________
The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Petrol is more affordable now than it was 40 years ago. When I stated driving in 1970 petrol was about 6s 8p per gallon - about 7.3p per litre. Since then average earnings have risen 20 fold whereas the price of petrol has risen, taking your price of £1.20, only 16 fold. If fuel had risen in line with earnings it would now be £1.53 .

OTOH the RPI has only increased by 11.5 in that period making the inflation adjusted price £0.85. Interestingly the average of RPI and AE figures is £1.19.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

So what? The price of milling wheat in 1982 was £120/tonne, a tonne of milling wheat today will cost about £100/tonne. I sold a Hereford heifer in 1990 for 101pence per kilo, a better quality continental heifer would cost about the same today, and the price has gone up! A bag of spuds on 1976 was £5, now we are selling them for as little as £2.50. The price of milk has collapsed too, all of this needs carting about with increasing expensive fuel.

I seem to remember dad buying a new fancy Sony Trinitron colour telly in '76 for £450, the last of the old CR tellies would have cost you the same and you'd have been able to get a cheap on in Asda for £100.

There is no point in earning more money if the commodities and services that the government control just keep getting increased in line with or above inflation. They are very selective when they say they want to market to drive prices down.

I seem to remember paying 38ppl in 1994 for unleaded, my wages have not increased three fold as fuel has and I am now doing a quarter of the miles I did then.

In 1971 my salary would have bought about 3600 gallons of petrol or a new Ford Escort. In 2009, when I stopped working, my salary would have bought over 10,000 gallons of petrol or a new BMW 5 series saloon. That seems to be represent a worthwhile increase in motoring lifestyle.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

The value of one’s salary generally increases with age. 1971 was almost 40 years ago, so I guess you must have just been starting out in your professional life.

So to compare apples to apples instead of caviar: what can today’s new starter afford?

Getting to the point: today’s prices would be lower if it wasn’t for the huge rate of taxation. So much for
"progress"!

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Based on the offer my 21 year old son has just received - about 4000 gallons, broadly similar to when I started. And a years salary would buy him a fairly high spec Ford Focus.



True. But if the fuel duty was lower our income tax or VAT or something would be higher so we would have less disposable income to spend on the cheaper fuel

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

It's the fluctuations as much as anything else that annoy me. It makes it hard to budget. Taking all DCB's very valid points, I'd still welcome some sort of "stabilising" tax regime for fuel.

That's primarily because of innovation and progress of design and manufacture.


Yes, but how much of that was tax when you were a lad?

The pre-tax cost of petrol is getting cheaper (again because of innovation and advancements of processing) but the government have capitalised on that gain by grabbing the difference.


I think you missed a trick.
Practically everyone is a tax payer; not everyone is a motorist. The motorist is subsidising themselves (so incurring administration losses) as well as subsidising others. So the motorist really is a cash cow!

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Whatever the reason cars are, in real terms, cheaper now than they have ever been.


Is Claire complaining that the price of petrol is too high or that it is over taxed? If the former I have demonstrated that the real price of petrol has not risen over my, depressingly long, driving life. If the second then we have an interesting argument.



There are about 32 million income taxpayers in the UK (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2_1.pdf) and about 29 million motor vehicles, some of which are used by more than one person, so the difference is not very significant.

Granted that there are other taxes, mainly VAT, which are paid by all 50 million adults. But the perception, which motoring organisation like to propagate, that motorists are a tiny beleaguered minority heavily subsidising the vast majority of the population is far from the truth.

And non motorists could complain that their taxes are being used to build and maintain roads which they do not directly use, though that is not an argument that I would support; no more than I would support the complaint that the tax on tobacco is not spent on maintaining hospices for the those dying of smoking related diseases.

_________________
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Cars are cheaper in real terms due to competition which brought about improved manufacturing and design techniques, better management, mergers, bankruptcies, platform sharing, in short the market was at work. But then the government uses this as a stick to beat us with by cranking up the tax on the fuel. Was it yesterday or the day before, that some government ruling or another told the mobile phone operators not to charge so much for using each others networks, this will force the prices down. They were wrapped on the knuckles by the EU last year on roaming charges. All this will be great for the consumer, but left alone the market would have sorted it out as consumers such as me avoid called across networks like the plague and look for better deals.

HMRC have a monopoly on tax, I can't take my business elsewhere, nor can I negotiate with them, that is why public services are so expensive. The Fuel Duty Escalator was first introduced to stop inflation caused by falling oil prices, then they used the excuse of the environment in the mid '90s, then Tony brought an emergency nurse out of a glass box in Number 10 and we were told she would be sacked if the protests didn't stop. Next the green card came out again, then we were subsidising the banks and now we are shoring up the public finances. When inflation is low, fuel goes up because inflation is low and we are told we can afford it. When inflation is high they say they are only putting it up in line with inflation.

No doubt the green card will get played again, but why is all energy not taxed the same?

Why does my tractor run on lower tax diesel?

Why do bus companies get the tax back on their fuel?

Why don't trains pay tax on their fuel?

Why is gas and electricity not taxed the same?

Why must I drive a low powered car, yet it is ok for my grandmothers care home to be heated like a tropical butterfly house?

Fuel is not cheaper for me in real terms. As I said up thread, I was paying about 38ppl in 1994 and doing 500 miles a week. Yes, today I am earning a lot more, but not 3 times as much, most of that is because I am not a student on the lowest rate anymore.

Here we seem to agree: there is much more value in today's tangible goods practically without exception, in terms of pre-tax cost anyway.


I suspect too high because it is overtaxed, but I’m not a mind reader

So, how much of that was tax when you were a lad?


Yes, this was my point (I wasn't limiting the argument to income tax payers only).


I agree. Motorists (who aren't a "tiny minority") merely significantly (not "heavily") subsidise those who don't own and drive vehicles (who aren't the "vast majority").
Can you show any examples of those organisations who make the claims as you describe: "tiny minority ... heavily ... vast majority" ?


Neither would I. As I'm sure I said in another thread: everyone benefits from them.

_________________
Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign