Safe Speed Forums

Just out of interest VC, what do you drive and why?

All this talk of the evil "computer" makes me think that fear of the unknown is distorting the reality. As has been said, it is very rare for a car these days to "fail to proceed" as a result of a "computer" fault. Back at the dawn of motoring, there were many who saw the (mechanical) goings on under a car bonnet as black magic. Nowadays we see those bits as the simplest parts of a car. We just need to evolve different skills to cope with today's cars. 50 years ago, someone might well have been able to fix their car with a bit of something he just had lying round in the boot. I think that 50 years from now, the same person will plug his "Blackberry" (or whatever personal electronic device comes to hand)into the diagnostic port and type in a few lines of code to bypass the problem and be on his way. The REAL problem (as Rigpig has said) is that fewer people have that kind of skill set.

When I was a kid I could go out and buy Car & Car Conversions and learn lots about how to make modifications to my car. These days, the "never-run-with-scissors" brigade have laregly succeded in turning us into a society of "victims" who wouldn't dare have a go!

We also need to look at the tendency of many mechanics to blame the "computer" for anything they can't fix. There is no reason why the "computer" shouldn't be as reliable as a transistor radio. In a previous job, I used to have a box of engine management "computers" under my desk, returned as "faulty". Most of them were fine. In fact, I use to post them back to the dealers as replacements! Of the ones that weren't fine, most had failed because some "muppet" had gone looking for a fault with a test lamp (usually a god 20 watt one!) and blown the tracks off the circuit board!

Don't think so. That said, on most cars I have bought (usually pretty old when I do!) the spare wheel is nearly always the one in the best condition. I'd have thought an alloy in the boot would lead a pretty cushy existence! Is it more the case tha tit wouldn't fit in the well?

As for steel vs. alloy, steel is about 3x the strength of aluminium and about 3x the density so that explains the small difference in weight. Obviously, there are higher grade alloys of both steel and almuminium and the best aluminium alloys are very good indeed but I'm not sure that "cheap" mass-produced "alloys" are made of anything particularly special. The steel wheels are thin and have a lot of shape because steel just lends itself to that kind of production technique whilst alloys lend themselves to being cast.

I think an alloy spare would annoy me as the screw down thingy to stop it sliding about in the wheelwell wouldn't fit any more, plus there is the thing about shelling out money for a single alloy when a steel one will do just fine. Plus it's harder to get them mixed up then.

That's why it'll be the end of us. We are building technology in layers, which depend on each other. That is a basic fault in modern life. Now and again, something “unusual” happens and we are knackered. The last one was the “lambda sensor lemons fail due to grit in the gas” fiasco. That was a small one. Larger ones will happen, and a bad one might mean no food in the supermarkets for six weeks.

The idea is to make simple systems that operate without layers of technology, or can be fixed to work that way. Right now, some bozo opens the wrong valve at the refinery, and half our cars conk out the next day. Who the hell dreamed up that “advance in engineering”?

There are signs that salvation is on it’s way, e.g. simple cars from India that can be fixed with a rusty nail. And open source software might one day be a way to free car owners from vertical lock-in. That could stop makers putting trade-secrets in “engine management systems” so you have to go to their dealer chain. What a total rip off that is – give me back my Ford Cortina that didn’t have that rubbish.

BTW: I particularly despise makers who pass off avoidable obsolescence as “advanced engineering”. Those lemons really need sorting out.

PS: It seems to me that an increase in damage could be classified into three types of cause. First, it could be because the roads are more crap than they were. I have seen little evidence of that myself. Second, it could be because we don’t treat our cars carefully. I’ve seen plenty of evidence of that. And third, maybe our cars are less robust. Can you compare a modern car with one of these:

http://tinyurl.com/yrenv3


Nope.

So all in all, our cars are failing, and sure it could be due to holes in the road. But let’s make sure we aren’t driving badly. And then ask the manufacturer why they make cars that aren’t sturdy. That’s the main thing, actually. They are churning out cruft, and people are lapping it up and paying a fortune at the same time.

You're quite right, there's no comparison. How many cars of that era spent more than a few hours a week, as opposed to a few hours a day, on the road? How many cars of that era could routinely clock up 6-figure mileages without a serious amount of TLC? How many cars of that era could be driven 20-30-40000 miles a year before any form of servicing was required?

Yes, there are things to admire about the vehicles of yesteryear, but to suggest they're more robust than the average modern vehicle is, I think, a bit misleading. There might not be as much to go wrong in them, but the stuff they did have required more frequent attention than the equivalent parts on a modern vehicle.

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Chris

There are things to admire about today's vehicles of yesteryear, but sadly there will be nothing to admire about tomorrow's vehicles of yesteryear (i.e. the silvery, nondescript cars of today) - assuming any of them at all can still run, which I doubt because the plastic bits and the computers will all be broken.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, when your car (whatever it is) or mine is 50 years old, no-one will give a hoot about that model. They are no more remarkable than a beige personal computer, and I expect they'll only get worse as time goes by.

So, if cars are so disposable and interchangeable and cheap, why should we care whether our cars "matter"? It's because we're blokes, and we're supposed to mess with things, and things are meant to be messed with. But that particular avenue of pleasure has now been blocked off, thanks to the diddy little computer programs that control us, and make us queue at the dealers when the blasted "lambda sensor" goes on the blink yet again, or the flaming dash board lights start flickering.

My old Toyota is rotting down the scrap yard now. It was one of the last with a proper carb and no computers. I'm running out of admirable vehicles of yesteryear, and now I have to drive my wife's computerised car from France, adding insult to injury! I've put insulation tape over the dashboard lights, but I can still see them twinkling away at the back. OK, it was cheap, but what a load of rubbish it is.

PS: could you imagine the size of the pothole you'd need to go down to bend that Rover's wheel?!?

All the computers will be broken. It's a good job you can get aftermarket ones to run your engine then isn't it. The Apexi PowerFC is pretty good though you do have to get it with a new engine wiring harness. If you want to map it up yourself you can do, or you can pay a 3rd party to do it, hell most of the ECUs out there can be mapped by yourself if you feel like it. Have a look at openecu.org for newer Subarus and Mitsubishis for example.

Ok, so you need a laptop and a serial port, but I'd rather sit in the nice warm drivers seat having determined that my car is knocking at >6000 RPM on full boost, and just retard the ignition timing by a few degrees and add maybe a bit more fuel than piss about under the bonnet trying to convince the carubettor to do that at high RPMs while still behaving correctly at low RPMs

And a dealer visit to change a lambda sensor? Have you ever worked on a car? Changing a lambda sensor is no more difficult than changing a spark plug. The only caveat is that on some of them you need a special socket (£10) that has a slot in the side so that the wire doesn't get torn to pieces. Other than needing that socket the procedure is identical, discoinnect wire, unscrew, apply grease to thread of new one, screw back in, connect wire. If you bought a universal one rather than a main dealer one you'll have to crimp on a couple of wires but that's no biggie really.
Edit: On my car, changing the lambda sensor is actually easier than the spark plugs as you can get at it through the front nearside wheelwell. Damn boxer engine!

Ok I'll admit that the generic A->B vehicles like your 1.2 Fiestas will be long forgotten, but that's equally true for the Fiestas of yesteryear, when was the last time you saw a Mk2 Fiesta on the road that wasn't an XR2i or similar? It's only ever the interesting or historically significant cars that get preserved and I fully expect to see the Impreza turbo, Celica GT-four etc. etc. become classic cars given time.

I can't believe you're saying that ... I did my apprenticeship (as a mechanic, sort of) 30 odd years ago, when you were running around in nappies! OK, it was along time ago, and a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then, but yes, I spent time working on cars.

The trouble is the plastic bits as much as the computers. After X years, where X is between 15 and 20, it just crumbles in your fingers like birthday cake. The hot/cold cycles do it in. No amount of super glue will fix it, so there's no chance for them at all, I'm afraid. There might be a few museum pieces that can't be driven, but that's that. They've got avoidable obsolescence down pat, nowadays.

BTW: You still see a few old Ford Fiestas in Wales. They are very reliable, actually - no lambda sensors, you see. You'll see some of those in 30 years, but nothing post 1995. That was the make/break year, when plastic and computers took over.

PS: thanks for the openecu link. That's a chink of light. If we have to have computers, let us at least have the source opened up and the protocols as well. The makers treat them as trade-secrets, you know, as part of their obsolescence planning.

Has Sir considered a horse and cart? Not much to go wrong with one of them and great over potholes!

It's true that modern cars are more sensitive to fuel quality but surely the answer is to ensure that the fuel quality is OK! Cars with pneumatic tyres are susceptible to punctures if there are nails on the road but the answer is to keep nails off the road (although I daresay there are those who would prefer to go back to solid wheels)!

Come on mate! If you hate modern cars that much and they're as lousy as you say, why don't you just get yourself an old sit-up-and-beg Rover? What's all this "I HAVE to drive my wife's..." Don't tell me! She poked a gun in your ribs and said "DRIVE"!

I agree with some of what you say (or at least the principles behind it) but I also think you're laying it on a bit thick! It's true that manufactuers are being more secretive than necessary with engine management codes but the European Commission is onto that and is forcing them all to standardise their fault code protocols. Cars built over the last 5-6 years are likely to be the worst in the future as far as needing bespoke diagnostic equipment is concerned. After that, more generic ones are feeding through. There are already plenty of computer programmmes available for diagnostic work, it's just that you need to acquire different skills to those that were necessary for cars 30 years ago! There WAS a time when a mechanic would be expected to adjust the "grab" of an old leather-faced clutch by either applying linseed oil to it (if too severe) or chalk / talcum powder if it was slipping. Not many pople want to go back to that but there are bound to be a few "Beardy Weirdies" who think that these nasty modern "fit-and-forget-for-100,000-miles" clutches are a big backwards step!

For what it's worth, I actually prefer fuel injection to carbs. The carb is an analogue device and can actually "wear out" (especially those old SUs)! In all the old "sheds" I've owned, the injected ones have given me far less trouble than the carburated ones.

Don't be so sure that just because the Indian offering is cheap it can be fixed with a nail either! It will have to meet the same emissions standards if they sell it here as any other car in its class and unless you are happy with 20BHP, that means a modern engine management system just like everyone else's!

My father in law is forever telling me that "they'll never make another car that can hold a candle to my old Hunter"! This usually precedes any one of a great number of anecdotes about "...the time I broke down in..." or "...the time the such-and-such fell off.."

He doesn't even know how to open the bonnet on his new Skoda - and has never needed to!

That’s the problem with layering. If you increase the coupling between things, your reliability nosedives. One rare event knocks everything out, but you can’t predict what the event will be (I know about these things, having survived the Montreal Ice Storm,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Amer ... rm_of_1998).

One answer is to ensure the coupling is loose in your systems, in this case by making your car robust to bad fuel. Don’t forget – only the lemons conked out. And, if your wheels break on potholes when they didn’t before, it could be your wheels, or the way you drive. Basically, reduce dependency - that’s the way forward.



Now your talking! Actually, money is a bit tight right now, so I’m holding on ‘til I back to Quebec, where I can get something more like this:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Free ... 1/mc70.jpg

Feast you eyes on a real man’s car (sans ordinateur)!



Thanks - that is my hallmark.



Thanks be to the Lord (or the European Commission, whichever).



It’s just as well that I am have post graduate quals in software development as well as my City and Guilds as a mechanic. But I won’t need no programs once I have my Monte Carlo.



My old ’58 Ford Thames van was far better than any Hunter. Did I tell you about the time the throttle cable broke on the A41 after a gig in London, and I fixed it by tying a microphone cable to the end of the lever, and fed it through the window and looped it over the mirror …



Yet I can't help thinking that he liked his old Hunter more than the Skoda, wouldn't you say?

You mean you can't?

I'm thinking of changing my car soon, and I'm seriously considering a 4x4 or truck-type thing, so I don't have to worry about humps and potholes in the roads...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

Fill yer boots, BottyBurp. I've heard Jeeps are best on UK roads!

Read that, so let me get this straight they get ~30 Billion of us in road tax
of this ~8 Billion is spent on maintaining the roads, some is speed on Traffic claming. However to expand the road network we will be expected to pay more.

Unbelievable.

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Oct 11 Birmingham Half Marathon. I am running for the British Heart Foundation.
http://www.justgiving.com/Rob-Taylor

You're way off the mark here. As someone whose current job it is to write software for these computers, I can state with absolute certainty that there's no built-in obsolescence.
The source code etc are only kept secret because of the huge costs involved in development, testing and validation. Obsolescence only comes about because something better and/or cheaper comes along.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

I have had less trouble, over the years, with electronic ignition than with points/breaker/capacitor. I have had no trouble with ECUs' at all. My current m/cycle has electronic ignition, electronic injection and an engine management system stuck under the tank. Oh, and abs....with its own management system. It even has an air pressure sensor (even though I'm never going over the alps....)

All this works ok as long as fuel is ok and I'm ok.

The current bike has 43000 on the clock, it replaced one with 356000 on the clock....same make, basically the same system. The only trouble I had with that was when one of the EF injectors decided to go short circuit.

I think back to the triumphs, the bsas...the ariel...the francis barnet...

How did I ever find time for a life running them ?

You've lost me there! Are you saying you survived this BECAUSE you had an old car with no lamba sensor? Anyway, congratulations on surviving it!



A "lemon" being something that YOU think shouldn't have conked out when it did? Where do you draw the line though? Should one be able to pee in the tank before the engine objects? I have had plenty of old cars pack up on me due to water in the carb. Those nice modern ones with the high tech plastic tanks are much better! Besides, a dose of crappy enough fuel could make a real mess of a nicely tuned Monte Carlo engine! Remember the Shell fuel Fiasco in the 1980s? Long before lambda sensors were fitted in Europe. In a way, it's arguably BETTER to trash a relatively inexpensive and easy to change Lambda sensor that gives you advance warning of poor fuel than to rebuild an engine!



Whatever chokes your chicken! I prefer something with a bit of finesse! (we have bends in the roads round here so it wouldn't be much use to me)! I have to concede though, I bet it makes a nice noise when you "give it the beans". There can be few sounds as nice as a big Yank muscle car engine working hard!



Interesting. My mate's dad had a Thames truck. It's party piece was a tickover so slow that you could read the writing on the fan belt as it went round. Other than that, I have to say it had little to commend it!

I too had a throttle cable break once but on a TVR. I had to fish the remains of the inner cable out, lead it through the gap between the bonnet and the base of the windscreen and put my hand out of the window to grab the end of it. That was a fun drive home! Best part of 300 horses on the end of my finger in a 1 ton car!



Well, at least he THINKS he did! Time is a great distorter of reality. When Rover had the bright idea of reinventing the MGB V8, I had a drive in one and was amazed at how awful it felt - like a "new" old car! Handled like a wet sponge! The same was true when Middlebridge reinvented the Reliant Scimitar - not surprisingly, it felt like a Scimitar did when it was new - AWFUL by modern car standards! We only remember the good bits!

That said, we have more in common than you might think, really. My own car is the best part of 20 years old and I love it dearly - far more than my new company Eurobox (quite a big box actually, it's an MPV) but just because I love driving my old car doesn't mean my company car is bad, or a "lemon"! In fact, considering my own car is a 6 cylinder petrol and my company car is a 4 cylinder diesel, it's amazing that the company car is more refined at motorway speeds!

I'll get back to you there, because I believe that baroque engineering will end in tears, eventually!



Yes. It's about baroque engineering again. It was grit in the gas this time, but that's not the issue.



I don't care about any of that - it's the roomy seats and big trunk that's the thing.



We gigged in Liverpool, Chester, Manchester and London for 4 years in that old pile of junk, and I never changed the oil in all that time! Did I tell you about when the radiator hose went? It was impossible to source a spare, so I lined the old one with a section of motorcycle inner tube!



My respect for you is growing!



At least some of it was memorable. I have photos of my old cars, but there is absolutley no reason to take a picture of the modern breed. As far as I am concerned, they are as interchangble as a washing machine.

I'm on about avoidable obsolescence, i.e. planning to prevent obsolescence. What about cooperation between these makers, so that the software is commoditised like light bulbs are. That means the systems would be supportable, and understandable, even if the originator screws you. If you like having some corporation control your belongings, fine. If you want to be free of that sort of thing, you have to have the source. How do you know that some register rollover won't screw you up in 25 years time?



Yes, as well as trade-secrets. It's a fine thing when a maker won't even show you the very things you've paid them for, isn't it? If you have a new car, you don't have all the bits anymore - you just have a license to use some of them. You never own the whole car - what a bloody cheek eh?



That's no comfort when a register rollover or a divide by zero finally stops your engine, years after the parts have dried up. Don't even think of saying it won't happen.

PS: It's interesting work, what you are doing. I expect it combines a lot of measurement and control, presumably using real time programming techniques and embedded microchips. I've seen some of your source code, and it's very tidy. I expect it's C++ for that job, eh? How do you control threading and synchronisation?