Safe Speed Forums

That's right Rigpig and I hope everyone notes how Johnnytheboy couldn't resist attacking an argument that isn't actually being made.

As for supposedly being confrontational, I would suggest that when posters want to come out with a reply similar to Johnnytheboy's above, then actually the confrontational attitude is more imagined than real.

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Before you moan about middle-lane hoggers, check that you yourself are obeying all the rules of the road.

I not normally quote myself


But I think I should clarify that this continental sign to try to communicate with chap behind that he make me feel "not comfortable with his presence" ist not rudey


It originate in France .. we think. It gain across sassy Europeans into a sort of recognised code. We teach to others .. they say it odd but it does seem to be understood.


It difficult to describe .. it has to be seen really. But basically .. the code on mainland continent ist to show little "o" with finger und thumb in front of central mirror - und then back full hand wave as if to say "ease off a bit my friend!". This ist done within a second - und repeated as long as driver doing this know it to be as safe as a gear change

Brits are a bit insular but perhaps we need to have some sort of taught code which communicate with the bloke behind if we think or perceive him to be too close. He may not even realise he causing discomfort ir unease

This post really belong in "Improve" section for discussion as to merits or the flaws - which there are.. of course


Claire Liebchen und other moderators pals - please feel free to move or paste up into relevant if think this warrant separate train of discussion ... It an aside to weepej .. too. Would this have helped him in his situation which might have been unpleasant in outcome for him to see und the numpty in question.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

You see, I can't understand why people would frequent a topical board where 99% of people agree with you.

Wouldn't your time be better served off out on the web on pro speed control sites trying to change people's mind?

As I have said previously and asked "weepej" numerous times how many "Speed Cameras" have caught unlicensed / uninsured / dangerous drivers / unroadworthy vehicles / drunk drivers and I am still waiting for a reply.

These are the things that traffic police can see and deal with immediately that is what safety is about not penalising a poor driver for straying over the limit for 50 yds or so in a speed limit with a camera as it is a well known fact that cameras don,t have common sense and discretion they only work on one perception and that is you have exceeded the limit for a few yards so the answer is a £60.00 fine and 3 points on you licence end of story.

As we all know a prosecution is a "crime solved" for the number crunchers so it gets the "solved crime rates" up for the local forces area.

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"There But For The Grace of God Go I"

"He Who Ain,t Made Mistakes Ain,t Made Anything"

Spannernut

I've consistantly said I would like to see more traf pol on the streets, but I've no problem with there being more speed cameras too.

Ach.. but ist this not what happen with Andreas und his merry men und Krissi und Mike und IG's own sister "Angelika" (She really an Angela ) Nothing nasty posted. Future agreed. It why there such a radical change with the forum associated with the mag . Quite rightly they wished to distance from daftness which sullied the brand und a rather pleasant magazine which that team work pretty darned hard to deliver to very tight deadlines. It not a "stress free job" to compile a mag which appeal to fullest spectrum of riders after all. Und that mag ist worth a read.. browse und A BUY!

There was never a conflict or argument. Any argument stemmed from a rather daft user mod whose balloon got pricked over his bias .. he got the push ,. und he made waves. Nuff said. We have the wholest story on that one. It not what the keyboard farty warriors think Future played fair over all und accepted that their forum was not supposed to be a certain deranged non-cycling idiot's soapbox.,. If you believe he rides the Tourmalet regularly .. grow up. That one mean climb for a pro who train for hours per day. Not a 24/7 keyboard farty. He lurk. I "insult" him by pointing out the only riding he do ist to sign on given the amount of time spent on all cycling/motoring related fora. I post in morning before I leave for work.. in evening.. if Ted take kitten who cannot sleep out for soothing ride to lullaby to sleep by his smoothest driving style Whilst waiting for something to bake in oven.. etc.

If we riding for a charity event.. we less frequent on line. If on hols or with family commitment .. ist same. We not on every forum 24/7 like that one. He no rider or athlete or hold job. No one has that kind of time unless you dedicate life full time to a campaign - und make it the job - like our late Paulie.

But Andreas (the German one - my cousin (also Andreas) had a lot more folk than we thought involved und he did this because he could not reply to all the posts responding to him He bent rules of that forum perhaps We were amazed when we found out what he did get up to. He one devil .. but a likeable rogue all the same) - he lost his temper over the hypocrisy posted over pedestrians "getting in the way on a shared or normal footpath" You on wheels.. they the more vulnerable. You should put your money where mouths are und ease up when confronted with a "stray into your path" //just as all drivers should (some don't... COAST types ALWAYS DO!

But somehow spinny und his chums read whatever their warped mind wanted to read und not what actually posted. Future's legal agreed that the Highway Code/Cycle Craft/COAST posted und nothing else. They embarrassed .. it why Bike radar get set up.
Cycle chat ist not run by Future by the way.. It something else

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

I want more police. I want to see the Smiley Sid more .. before the speed cam which should be last resort. You have the Smiley Sid fella to alert.. perhaps twice before cam ping. There no excuses if adequate warning then... This now appearing in parts of Germany und Austria with most positive results per "FAZ Motoring section"

But police do much better than any speed cam. You aware they could be around .. und when you see them.. most of us are "model drivers"!


I usually have IG as passenger many times. He never stop working You always get "the feedback/debrief" after drive ]

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

But he, IMVH&HO, is the model PC! A man I can respect and would want EVERY officer to be like in a perfect world.

But, sadly, we don't live in a perfect world.

It isn't enough to have officers policing our roads, lest we forget, because they too can be corrupt/biased/human...

(I talk from personal experience )

If I ever get pulled over by a cop car I hope it has within: a woman PC, a biker, a cyclist, a pedestrian, someone old&young. A people carrier, I guess, but officers with equal authority who have an equal say!

Police officers replacing cameras has ben mentioned often here, and I am in favour of this. But I don't think it would be any better than scameras if you don't have a balanced 'jury'.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Wildy I'm confused. The above appears to about something that went on on another forum, yet you've attached it to a post quoted from this one. Sorry, but I'm not with you, what point are you making

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Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

I think this forum is guilty of scaring off people that have pro-camera views and that the word "troll" is grossly overused on here. I'm sorry, but that's my honest opinion.

I enjoy explaining to these people how misapplication and abuse of a seemingly good thing can turn it into a bad thing. But the mudslinging always scares them away before I am able to put my point across. It's very frustrating.

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

I'm with you there; honestly I am. I have seen people here accused of trollness but they have brought points with which I agree.

It's late and I need some sleep. last post tonight...

I can't look back at who said it but at one point someone said something to the effect that 'generally most drivers drive too fast most of the time', or words to that effect. YES! I agree!!!

It's very noticable as a cyclist I can tell you.

But it still comes down to too fast in the wrong place. A good driver doesn't use a speed which is inappropriate in the wrong place.

Unfortunately there are many bad drivers out there and speed cameras just aren't getting the bad drivers.

If someone/anyone who comes on here and makes a statement which is honest, or just from the heart, I hope I listen even if I don't always agree.

I want to keep the spirit of Safe Speed alive in my own (very small) way and if I get it wrong at times then tell me why I'm wrong. Don't ignore my posts when I'm trying to make a valid rational logical point!!!!!!!!!!!


This is where a troll reveals his/her true colours IMVHO but I think you are right for pointing this difficulty out.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

We try to welcome everyone, including those people who have differing views from those of Safe Speed.
Debates are great and are welcomed. Sometimes people say things which are taken the wrong way, or various implied meanings then become the last straw, and so a slinging match can then ensue.
This is sad as it not only brings the topic to a dead end but the whole forum, can get a bad name, or people give up, as they do not see enough control.
I am trying to handle these difficult decisions, and try to keep people encouraged to contribute without the defamatory or insulting remarks.

If anyone sees anything that is becoming out of order, just post to the Moderator of that group, or to myself, and we shall do everything that we can to bring things back to good order and discussion as quickly as we can.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Ach! It just that any time you remind a cyclist that riding on pavement, not lighting the bicycle und ignoring red lights are all or suggest something resasonable like hi-viz vest, riding with COAST in mind und reminding that we all resposible for our OWN safety by just being watchful und COAST led.. it automatically leapt on as "anti-cycling" - no matter which medium it appear on or in. Und cue a barrage of ad hominem posts about whoever wrote in paper or posted on this or that internet chatroom Not only that - it stay in fullest topic of conversation for years afterwards. Und then used in much the same way to attack argument not made und since we recognise the style of poster It like the pot calling the kettle rudey names


Motorists, however, know that the average twazak may be on foot, on bicycyle, on motorbike or in car/lorry und do not then see any one out there as "squeeky clean".


We also know that anything on wheels will be varying in speed ..most just over/just under a speed limit at any one time - but basically legal on average. But drive past the speed cam on the blip over und you have a problem


We also know that the KSI have more to do with complete failure to observe .. anticipate.. plan .. apply COAST than anything else.. und it only tke two to fail in one area at same time to have disaster.

But all we seem to hear ist the "speed cam work" from these folk. But it ist not working. Driving/cycling/general behaviour standards are worsening everywhere.

Why? Because police are not freed up .. they get wrapped in red tape und even replaced by plastic efforts und more cuts planned for real cops at the expense of scams und plastic policemen.

Try asking our little pet cuty cute to comment on this.. und you get the official party line per the Grauniad's view.

Switzerland . has speed cams. They hide them in wheely bins. They only allow a margin of 3 mph no matter what the limit.

They have 8% rise in KSI which bring them back to where they were before the scams arrive in lethal terms.

We not seeing much return in UK either. Still 3500 static for past decade.

Now discuss.

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

A quote from this page:Can anyone - logically, and by citing statistics - conclusively disprove a connection between the proliferation of speed cameras, which started in 1993, and the post-1993 KSI trend?
Better yet, can anyone prove that something else - or any number of other things - is responsible for the post-1993 KSI trend?

Since my ego, nor my sense of personal security are threatened by being wrong, I will offer a Devil's Advocate argument:
Could a decrease in driver quaility be responsible - in whole or in part - for the immediate cessation of the pre-1993 KSI trend?
Would an increase in driver quality help, in part or entirely, to reinstate the pre-1993 KSI trend?

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

Could speed cameras distract drivers?

Have they given drivers and pedestrians a false sense of security? They call them safety cameras when, even if they worked as the partnerships claim they work (which is doubtful!) would not have an immediate effect on safety.

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www.thatsnews.org.uk / www.thatsnews.blogspot.com / http://thatsmotoring.blogspot.com/

Rush, I think there is no question that average driver quality has reduced. I think this is a by-product of the same policies that brought us the speed camera proliferation.

Interestingly, camera proponents never seem to have any explanation for the government's decision to cancel the research into speed camera side-effects before it reported. It doesn't take a tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist to deduce that they'd rather keep their heads in the sand when it comes to the ill effects of their highly profitable toys!

Thatsnews, I almost completely agree with you.
However, from way over here, it seems that a growing number of U.K. drivers feel less secure due to scameras.
Specifically, what average driver quality/qualities have reduced?Are you saying that it isn't the scameras, but instead the policies that support them which are reducing driver quality?
(I am nitpicking out of genuine curiosity.)

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation

I wouldn't be surprised if this was shown to have a significant effect.
This false sense of security (on the part of both drivers and pedestrians) stems not so much from the speed cameras themselves, but more from the mindset that the roads are safe provided drivers stick to the limit.

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Only when ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside does the truth emerge - Kepler

Declining driver quality ?
We now have to sit 3 tests to get a full licence...the theory test, the hazard perception test and [finally] the actual driving test....which also encompasses the other two !
To top it off, there is now the pass-plus.
As for pedestrians....most are now talking on the 'phone, or have their ears full of ipods [and derivatives], or both, or are drunk.
Cyclists are a law unto themselves [no change there then]

Meanwhile, I now have to meander through a forest of signs wherever I drive...most roundabouts [of any size larger than a dinner plate] have a dozen signs, if not more. The m/ways are fast becoming a mobile disaster, you now start planning to come off the things about 10 miles away from your junction and what with the endless roadworks, the proliferation of weapons of mass persecution and the big gantries that appear overnight, you have a hard time even noticing the other vehicles !

It isn't (IMHO) poor driver training, it's information overload coupled to inexperience with a measure of hysteria thrown in.

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The world runs on oil, period. No other substance can compete when it comes to energy density, flexibility, ease of handling, ease of transportation. If oil didn’t exist we would have to invent it.”

56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing

Considering that are best 'tools' to drive well are our eyes and our minds, I do agree that we are seeing far too many roadside furnishings, and I thoroughly agree that cameras are distracting because they can threaten your very livelihood.
Prior to scameras you could genuinely focus on everything around you and keep a 'beady' eye out for the hiding cops. Not that you were doing anything untoward you understand - you just wanted to know where they were.
As a driver that is blessed with excellent eyesight, and in true Sherlock Holmes style to observe all that is around you, yes I see the cameras, but do I really want to be looking UP and away from the line of traffic sight, then onto a speedo, that has NOTHING to do with safety ?
Absolutely NOT.

You see Before scameras - yes we CHECKED our speedo, sure, but after we had entered a new road (change in limit). It was a glance to ensure that you were around the speed limit, your real speed was chosen for SAFTEY first, can you stop in half the distance known to be 'clear', (most change this to be 'the distance', but if you use half you are safer still) but that's another topic ...., checked for hazards, then progress according to conditions.
The rules are entirely about driving with your eyes - glued - to the road and any possible changes or altered states.

Now - and I noticed this recently, a LOT, especially as MOST of the roads that I were on were not 'known' to me.
I instinctively look for cameras FIRST, I have to, you just have to know where they are, - it could be your license if you are a few mph off. You HAVE to know if the signs are right - where the signs change, all the new and unusual road markings that in many areas are not in the highway code. All the new bus lanes and the times of them, Signage all over the place often for everything for pointless info to crucial road signs, al jumbled up together. It has become a farce.

So yes the difference is totally different, you have to pay attention, not *because* you *are* speeding, but because you *might* inadvertently go over by a few mph. !
And then *IF* you should be so unlucky, you have to know where the camera was - go back, take some photos, to ensure that all the signs are right etc etc, make sure that you have the exact time and place (which may take a little while if you are en-route to a further location and you cannot recall the last name of the town or didn't see one ... you may not even see a road name.
I don't have money to spend on Road Angel or the like so I do have to use my eyes but you knwo what it was like driving blind.
Seriously I had to sepnd so MUCH time - In CASE there was a camera looking UP to keep checking, that I hated it, I felt that road after road, I was having to think really hard about all the usual things that I would normally have been spending my entire time on (360 or road) was wasted on looking at things above street level.
Ok so you say - go at the limit - well then you spend 100's of glances to ensue that you are - but you then look at the road properly - only to see that camera - late, and you instinctively brake, before you check the speedo. Then you check find that you are 'fine' but to be sure you go through 10mph under the posted limit - just in case they have changed it somewhere and that last sign was a mistake!!!!

It is a nightmare - it is NOT driving, it *is* a game of chances. You now have paranoid drivers, constantly looking around for cameras. Fatal accidents are occurring at scamera sites. Police are told 'but officer, I was within the limit' (after an accident), the shift is horrifying. To falsify data and use that data to mislead the public, and stop a downward trend in KSI, is nothing short of criminal.

maybe you get used to your local area and that's OK but what when you tale your holiday and every time you egt home your ticket awaits !

The government has been trying for years to get us out of our cars, they sign a Eu treaty to do so. What a great invention to use this Weapon of mass extinction !

My eyes tell me what is going on all around me, my brain deciphers what requires, what action. This *IS* safe driving, and I aim to remind the government - clearly.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.