Safe Speed Forums

I'm with Sixy on this. Yes it may cause hardship etc., but I'm sure the person would rather suffer some hardship than live with the consequences of killing or maiming someone.

On the other side of the coin, can it be left to the individual concerned to say, "OK - I cannot drive safely/competently any more - I quit"? Surely if their faculties are going/have gone then they possibly can't even make that judgment?

So who's judgment should it be?
TrafPol? - None of them about
GP? - Perhaps
Family? - definitely! However hard it may be, we all of us have a responsibility to our families, ourselves and other road-users...

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

See my post above.

You can't force someone to give up driving, and the authorities will do nothing until it is too late.

So whats the answer for families who fear for their elderly loved ones' safety on the roads?

Robin - that depends upon how much inheritance you want!

Seriously though (and no, I've never been in this situation), surely if someone is really that concerned for the safety of a loved one then drastic action needs to be taken?

If hints, discussion and general family pressure don't work then remove the car. No, you won't be popular but you might just save someone's life.

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Science won over religion when they started installing lightning rods on churches.

OK, taking the discussion one stage further, supposing you have a family member (anyone, not necessarily elderly)who is a road safety hazard - period. What do you do then?

The son of my mums neighbour is an absolutely bloody hopeless driver. He has no spatial awarenes, no sense, no ability to judge what other vehicles are doing and has had numerous minor knocks and bumps.
I had a lift with him to the local station once...never again. We started off with his windscreen nearly obscured with ice, just a little gap to peer through. Driving along he went for a gap around a car that was parked on his side of the road forcing an oncoming vehicle to brake and mount the pavement; he simply couldn't judge that their paths were going to coincide unless one of them took evasive action. Do not ask me how he hasn't caused a serious crash because I honestly don't know.

He knows he isn't the best driver in the world but believes himself to be quite safe. His family think he is just 'dozy', he does silly things but is a nice lad and won't harm anyone.

Who sorts this one out? Who tells the aggresive driver in the family to calm down lest they push their luck one too many times? its a moral nightmare and I don't know what I'd do.

They're still adults, not elderly infants, you can't just take away their toys! I believe the correct term is TWOC'ing, but theft works just as well!

The point here is not about age, its about fitness to drive. There are some people who appear to be born unfit to drive, some who become unfit to drive and others who have unfitness thrust upon them. (And some who appear to be all three!!!).

I don't think it is right to single out the elderly due to that characteristic - it's about them recognising IF they are unfit to drive. I feel safer in my 92 year-old father's car than I do in the cars of some of my middle-aged friends.

As others have said - families can put pressure on family members who shouldn't drive (for whatever reason) but they CAN'T stop them.

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I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

How on earth did he pass his test then?
Several times we have discussed mandatory retests, and generally dont agree on how to apply the idea, yet it sounds like here is somebody who should be off the road!

As far as I recall, a GP can have a driver taken off the road by declaring the patient unfit, so if you were to inform the GP of a relative's unfitness, then he might become liable if he did not act and at least assess them.
My brother was declared unfit after a serious accident, and did not "lose" his license, just his permission to drive, until he was fit enough (after several operations) to drive again.
The all clear was given by the surgeon who performed the operations, to the GP.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I don't think a GP alone is the most qualified source of whether someone is safe to drive or not, all they can say is if they are physically fit to drive, which is something else altogether.

I have absolutely no idea how he passed his test Ernest. I know it took him more than one attempt, how many more than one I don't know.
There must be plenty like him, the Driving School Maureens of this world, who take umpteen attempts at their test and eventually manage to hold it all together for 40 odd minutes and pass. They're still no bloody good.
I suppose it must be all to do with the way the test is conducted and assessed; tick all the right boxes and don't tick the wrong ones and you're through. We employ much the same method to assess our trainee technicians; some will pass but you know deep down that they are crap however the system won't let you fail them on 'gut instinct' because they got all the assessable bits right.
It would be nice if a referal system could be adopted, whereby an examiner who has deep misgivings about a candidate who manages to 'pass', can refer them for a second test within a few months of their first free of charge. If the candidate fails the second assessment they are back to square one. This would IMHO help identify those who are broadly incompetent but manage to squeek through their test.

I don't know about the practicalities, but I've love there to be a 'continuous assessment' element to the test. Perhaps 30% of the marks come from the instructor, something like that.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Hi, sorry have not been back before now to post responses from my original post. I wrote a similar letter to the local paper which they printed, and it has been well received by the local community. I look forward to seeing the wealth of responses it is likely to get in next weeks 'letters to the editor' from my elderly neighbours and their carers!!

I maintain my original point which is that the right to drive should be competence based with no mitigation for other factors such as age or, for instance income. I accept the points re. cost and location for some people but that does not give someone the right to drive a vehicle, whatever their age, if they are not competent in all aspects of driving. For crying out loud, we allow half blind people to drive by virtue of the fact that there is no method of checking and no regulation to prevent same.

I realise this is a minority group when you take the overal stats into account. However, it's difficult to maintain that aspect living in this area because such accidents are commonly reported and we see near misses regularly. It is the competence of others that generally prevents a collision, but that's not so easily done by slow moving pedestrians.

It's worth noting that insurers do load premiums for elderly drivers (the age loadings vary depending on the insurers own target market and stats). Insurers have traditionally refused to insure those over a certain age as new business, but they will continue to renew a contract with an elderly driver who is already with them, subject to the age loadings. The low exposure also helps mitigate some of the competence risk for an insurer. Of course insurers also load and decline on the basis of speeding convictions, so their rates are not always a direct guide to risk.

[quote="SafeSpeed"]I don't know about the practicalities, but I've love there to be a 'continuous assessment' element to the test. Perhaps 30% of the marks come from the instructor, something like that.[/quote



Would be nice , BUT/BUT/BUT -would it be about the persons safety to be on the road OR

ABOUT the persons ability to drive tro DSA required standards (EG to follow rules)-

E.G. HOW many people could steer as per DSA needs .And how safe is this practice.

MORE -YES - very possibly.

mitigation for income should actually be inverse - those with plenty can afford taxis or chauffers.

Declaration of interests - come on folks lets have yours.

Mine - aproaching 60 - recognise some of my skills might be lacking due to my age - but saying that this week i've been driven by a coleague ( about 26)pased his test about 2 years ago , but i see/anticipate situations developing miles before him.His spatial awareness is good, but his reading of forward situations is poor. i don't want to be seen as a nag, so only speak up to advise of serious problems and advise of solutions.I'd like to help , but how - 40 years on the road - circa 2M miles , massive NCB .(and somehow IG s mates round here leave me alone and the cams don't get me -so i must be doing something right))
No formal additional driving qualificaions --except pride in my driving,and self critism of every trip - every move ,any time that i've done something that ive thought was wrong.
Solutions.

My declaration of interest: also approaching 60, recently became Qualified Observer with IAM, clean licence, no collisions from my fault since 1969.

So I know I have excellent observation, awareness etc. I am also required to judge the driving skills of others and offer advice to improve them where necessary.

I do have problems seeing properly at night (wearing glasses) and have invested in some yellow clip-ons which do reduce the dazzling from overly bright/ badly adjusted/ 4X4 lights.

I hope that I will know when to stop driving permanently. As a law abiding safe driver, I am already a risk to speeders and aggressive drivers but I can't do a lot about that except pull over and let them pass where safe to do so.

My mate's Dad had a minor stroke a couple of years ago. He loves cars and driving. He was classed fit to drive although his coordination was everso slightly impared and his ability to string sentences together was a little jaded.

He felt he'd lost his confidence and scrapped his car! I had to take my hat off to him.

On a slightly different OT note I remember a story an old friend of mine recounted a few years ago about a work colleague of his. Apparently he'd had his licence for about 30 years, had driven on average 25k a year and never had an accident.

He got to thinking that given, (as he thought), that on average you have one accident a year, he'd have 30 years of accidents to come in a oner!! He handed his company car keys in, took a desk job and used public transport ad-infinitum.

If only more people would recognise their lack of confidence.

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If I have to explain you won't understand.

A Cyclist - nice to see some one of my age group on here.Never had any inclination for IAM - possibly since i passed test , then after a few years had more instruction as firm thought i had no licence --so sent instructor and examiner in, AND before that, i ws mentored by my uncle - olde fashioned HGV driver/tank driver with very high standards.
My home roads teach (by default ) COAST ( IT'S THAT OR CRASH)
You get used to looking for problems behind/ahead/ looking round bends ,judging speeds ,doing a lot of things , added to uncles ideas of driving, now very heavily implanted.
Speeds round bends - on roads a tad wider than car - you learn to take at xx, then next time at a bit more ,the limit is brown pant time, or when you find that you can't see a car coming ( more brown pant time)
You don't get IAM Observers - none live in this part of the world - then you get winter .
Roads don't get gritted - so you learn how to detect black ice, then when snow falls you learn how to drive in it .

All part of the joys of highland road driving.

Declaration of interest?:
A glasses wearing 44 yo, full car and motorcycle licence 27 years, never had a point on my licence (that's torn it!), former motorcycle journalist and motorcycle trainer, driven allsorts from a Monkey bike to a Group A Intergale to a 7.5 tonner. No serious accidents. I'm no where near the 'daredevil' I was but probably little slower point to point - there's no substitute for experience and that sixth sense. Unfortunatly that sixth sense is I think something your born with. I do the odd track day and take a pride in driving as quickly, neatly and safely as possible, above all while attracting as little attention as possible - so points deducted for squealing wheels, locking brakes (no abs) etc. Oh and I have a real problem with Safety Nazis, the Nanny State, big brother and the blame culture.

I agree this isn't just about the elderly, but poor driving. I recall seeing a TV news item years ago about a middle aged woman who took her test something like 17 times and having passed declared she didn't like turning right so she'd just do more lefts!!

What about random retests - with a practical assessment (retired Class 1 drivers?) - choosen from those getting due care and attention fines or selected from insurance companies list of those who've been adjudged at fault in a collision. I suggest the second one because what are the chances of getting a due care for causing a collision these days?

Barkstar

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The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

bARKSTAR - GREAT IDEA -
this should be in brainstorming.

Like all elderly drivers I would fear a test - use the wheel wrong / fail to look out back on reverse ( when i'm used to using mirrors) ,use old fashioned logic that don't compute with DSA standards;.
Possible more terms - but do they make us oldies dangerous - NO- we've learned to live and learn from our problems. Has the DVLA?

Am having this with my father, I posted about him in the near miss section, it proving to be a difficult and slow process sometimes I make progress with him and others none. At present his skills are good but attitude poor.

When he gets physically and mentally 'past it' I wouldn't hesitate to tell him. Just need to step back from the fireworks.

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk