Safe Speed Forums

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum - I'm a newbie - but I really hope someone can clarify this for me!

On my way to work every day, I have to use a roundabout with 3 exits and 2 approach lanes. The 2nd exit is at about 1 o'clock on approach, and that is the one I take. I always approach in the left hand lane, not signalling until I am at least halfway past the first exit, then signalling left and exiting. I am often cut up badly by traffic entering the roundabout from my left which seems to assume that I am turning left even though I am not indicating. This happens very regularly, but not all the time - some drivers seem to understand that I am going straight on. At other times, I have to brake as the driver in the right hand lane suddenly cuts across me to exit at the 2nd exit.

I mentioned this at work the other day, and was told by my boss that I am a lousy driver, as everyone knows that if the 2nd exit is past 12 o'clock, you approach in the right hand lane indicating right, then pull over to the left hand lane and indicate left once you have passed the first exit. Another colleague agreed with him and said this is correct.

I only learned to drive about 3 years ago, but I was categorically told by my BSM instructor that if there are 3 exits, 2 lanes and no road markings (which is the case here), you treat the 2nd exit as straight on and approach in the left lane, indicating left once you have past the 1st exit.

The sign on approach to the roundabout shows the roundabout as being a conventional one, i.e. the 2nd exit is shown as being directly opposite whilst 1st and 3rd exits are positioned at 90 degrees, although in reality, as I have said, this is not the case.

I tried to get a definitive answer on this by looking at the Highway Code, but it just says to "select the appropriate lane" for any intermediate exit - very useful!

So, from my research, it appears that we may both be correct - and that this roundabout is an accident waiting to happen! Anybody have any views which may help with this?

Thanks

If most drivers are selecting the right hand lane locally, and most drivers expect people in the left hand lane to be going left, it is better to choose the right hand lane, regardless of who is 'right'.

Yes, I can appreciate your point - but it is about 50/50, so what should I do?

:lol: See what you mean. As advice goes it's simultaneously 100% accurate while being quite useless.

It's a tricky one though. I don't think this can really be carved in stone as it depends on how "straight on" the second exit is, or whether it looks more left or more right. That in turn could also depend on the width of the exit, the direction the road goes, whether the island is a bit off centre and probably other stuff. Basically, it sounds like a bit of a crap roundabout not unlike a crap roundabout near me. That one I usually approach on the right, because from my usual direction of travel exit 2 meets at about 1 o'clock but at such an angle that from above it would look like the first of two right hand options. Another reason I do it that way is that if someone else alongside me at the roundabout is going for the same exit from the left hand lane I have an extra option to avoid a coming together. From the left the choices are brake and let the other driver in first, or cane it and get there ahead of them. But in the right hand lane I have a third option - I can keep going right and come back round the roundabout for another go. I've never had to do this yet, and for sure I'd look a bit silly if I ever do. But I'd rather look silly than have an easily avoidable collision. Give it some thought and see if you think it's appropriate on the roundabout near you.

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OK, thanks - seems the best course of action is to start finding out who is responsible for this roundabout at the local Council and see if some pressure can be applied for better road markings. Presumably when it was designed there must have been a plan for how it would operate (or am I being naive?!)

I think as it is a small roundabout (not a mini but not that big either), to be in the right hand lane would be the more dangerous, as people pull out of "1st exit" which would be on my left, to go left in the left lane as soon as they see you are turning "right", so I think I'd be spending a lot of time going round and round waiting to exit if I didn't want to just cut people up.

I'd be grateful for a police view point on this though, if there are any police officers reading this!

In theory you should only have to go round once, max. Everyone gives way to the right, you already on the roundabout so you'll be on the right of traffic at the other exits and should therefore have a clear shot... nutcases permitting, of course . Here's an idea. Can you post a link to the roundabout on streetmap.co.uk or another mapping site? I was going to for the local one I mentioned since I didn't think I'd explained it too well, but streetmap didn't recognise the road name to begin with (about 12 alternatives, nearest of which was two counties away ) and when I finally got there it was an old map from before the junction was last changed. But if you have better luck and there's a reasonably good map for it somewhere online then we could all have a goosey at it and discuss it in detail, especially the trafplods on here.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

OK, good idea.

Here is a link and the arrow indicates my direction of travel.

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x ... srf&dn=852

Thanks for taking an interest in this - I know most people will think I'm being a pedant, but I am always curious for people's opinions!

Since every roundabout is different in some way, one has to have a degree of flexibility in the way that rules and advice are interprited.

The lesson you're learning here is that the left hand lane on this particular roundabout exposes you to risk. Listen to your experience and avoid the risk. That probably means using the right hand lane.

It's possible that you are sending a confusing signal to the first exit traffic with your vehicle's speed or position - this is something that you should consider carefully. Sometimes it's possible to steer a few feet earlier and make it very clear that you're missing the first exit.

Every time something goes wrong you should ask yourself very carefully what you might have been able to do to avoid it. (I can see you're doing this because you've posted - that's brilliant. Well done.)

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Paul Smith
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Yes, very very similar to the one near me, although it looks like the second exit isn't quite as right. Assuming a similar width I'd go for the right hand lane in that case, just like I do here. That said, sharp drivers ought to work out your intentions from a combination of your car position and when and where you signal, from either lane. Shame there aren't more sharp drivers around.

FWIW, I think it's a bit optimistic to expect the local council to have an answer. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I never even got a response from mine over a visibility issue, and then there's the place in the west country with wobbly white lines down a road because a decimal point was in the wrong place (or something equally ridiculous) and nobody questioned it.

No worries. Oh and BTW to your boss for telling you you're a lousy driver. You are approaching things differently. instead of the "look, everyone knows..." attitude you are thinking things through, getting opinions and weighing them up. To an extent learning to drive is an almost indefinite process that goes on for years after the L test, but lots of drivers don't seem to learn a thing once the ink on their new license is dry. Took me several years to learn that I needed to carry on learning. You've sussed it out right away, and your boss seems oblivious by the sounds of things.

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Thank you all so much for your opinions. It was mainly the fact that I had noticed that it was about a 50/50 split of other drivers - those who took the fact I was in the left hand lane and not indicating to mean that I was going straight on, and those that seemed to assume I was turning left - that made me realise that there may be factors in play other than that I was encountering a lot of less-than-fully-aware drivers.

Also, I had noted that there was also an almost 50/50 split of those using the left lane to go straight on and those using the right lane to go straight on (from my position further back in the queue).

I guess I will just proceed with caution in future on this roundabout - and I am a great believer in the power of the people, so I will give it my best shot with the Council and see what happens.

Whatever the outcome, I am very glad to have found this site - I will certainly be visitng in future! I'm off now to have a browse - thanks again.

From the map, I would expect very little traffic to take Exit 3 because it's effectively doubling back on itself.

Therefore, if the weighting of traffic is roughly equal between Exit 1 and Exit 2, it makes sense to approach in Lane 2 if heading for Exit 2.

Although the HC rules are a useful starting point, each roundabout has to be taken on its own merit. I can think of some where traffic routinely and sensibly uses Lane 1 to in effect turn right, others where it turns left from Lane 2.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

FYI and not terribly relevant, but in fact in this case, you use exit 3 to get right into the heart of Shefford, the nearest town - to go the same route from a previous roundabout takes you all over the shop and makes Shefford a nightmare to get into, so in fact most people use the exit 3 route. This "exit 3" route is weight restricted, so the other route into Shefford is mainly used by the HGV's.

Lizzey,

If the other 50% of the traffic which (like you) is using lane 1 does not appear to experience the problems you do, the answer may lie in your road positioning. If you are taking the roundabout very wide, you may be (inadvertently) 'signalling' an intention to take exit 1. I appreciate you may be doing this to allow space for vehicles alonsgide you in lane 2 and that is the right thing to do - you certainly shouldn't cut from lane 1 to inside of roundabout then back to lane 1 for exit.

If what I've suggested seems possible, you could try taking a slightly tighter line (still allowing room on the inside).

That is a very good suggestion - thank you. I will give this a go - without, as you say, cutting into the right hand lane! I have noticed that a lot of other road users do try and cut straight across, so this may well be the problem.

Thanks!

You shouldn't even rule out "cutting into the right hand lane".

Obviously everything we do has to be governed by safety as a first priority - so what if it's SAFER to move to the right on a particular occasion? We couldn't do that if another vehicle was using the space or intending to use the space, but if no one is using the space AND you can position further away from the exit 1 joining traffic then ask yourself: Why not?

I usually ensure that I'm going around a roundabout with no vehicle on either side and by so doing the option of moving further left or right is usually available. We're looking for safety space all around our vehicles and often it's there for the taking - so take it.

Edited to add: A note of caution and responsibility - It's your DUTY to ensure that something is safe before you do it. If you have ANY doubts about following the suggestions in this post then you should NOT be following them. But always be open to new and better ways of avoiding trouble on the roads.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I'm glad someone posted about a roundabout problem as they seem to be extremely confusing to the ordinary driver, even someone with their wits about them has trouble navigating a roundabout that is not in their native territory-can we have a national standard wher the lanes going into a roundabout are not more or less than the lanes in it please; and eliminate traffic lights on them where not needed I've seen roundabouts with broken traffic lights where the traffic is actually flowing smoother than when the lights were working

Regards


Andrew

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Could this link be an alternative view of the same roundabout?

Assuming it is - one thing I notice about it is that the A507 runs from the entrance you are taking to the left-hand exit of the roundabout - perhaps this is why people are assuming you are turning left as this would be the "natural" exit to continue along the road?

Lizzy, youre paying way to much attention to the road when you should relly be looking at your speedo

It's particularly annoying when the lights are in operation 24/7, and at night time you may need to wait at three sets when there's no traffic about - M60 Junction 1 (by the pyramid) is especially bad for this

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Hi Lizzie!

Some sound advice given to you already!

Possibly as Observer points out ... you may be giving out the wrong messages to other drivers if split is 50/50. Have a little think about your road position next time you negotiate the roundabout.


It's great that you are thinking about it - and the very act of doing so appears to show the signs of thoughtful expertise and motivation to improve. This canniot be said for you boss and his colleauge according to your post...

OK - I do not know this roundabout - but they all differ and some can be very tricky and confusing. Think we had a debate in the archives somewhere as well - about May -ish.

This advice is given in Road Craft anyway - and this is a good book for you to add to your bookshelf. As you approach any roundabout you are seeking information - identifying hazards. In this case - you have identified the hazard - people in the right hand lane who need some training in mirror work and road space apparently However, one wrong and even two wrongs do not make the proverbial right and you have to observe, anticipate and plan your defensive action accordingly. As you approach this roundabout - scan to the front, sides and rear and consider an over shoulder glance into a blind spot. Decide early which lane to take. In this instance it appears to be 50/50 and perhaps the majority use exit 1 and exit 2 - with some of the outer lane traffic perhaps being right hand turners who entered at the first exit?


If you choose the right hand lane: Keep alert for an early view of traffic both on the roundabout and approaching from other entrances - you approach being prepared to stop but ready to go....

Once on the roundabout - you want L2 - and you then need to adjust your position. This requires impeccable mirror work before committing yourself to your exit... again check your nearside roadspace is clear before you move across. This is what the muppets cutting in on you at exit 2 should be doing in any case. Thus they are not giving you the roadspace and possibly would be liable if they hit you. It is a common headaches for insurance companies to decide on liability in a roundabout collision of this type. Would be up to the insurance company to judge - and I'd keep a disposable camera in the car to take pictures in case of a collsion. It helps!

I would tell your boss and his colleague that driving is an ongoing learning process - and a BiB who is now 50 and is a Daddy Rat is still learning and going on refresher courses - some 26 (ArrgghHHH! NO!) years after qualifying as a Class 1. driver. Tell him that one hopes his mirror work and anticipation of numpties is as up to speed as yours - cos from your post - it does not make me think so. Add that a complacent muppet who thinks he knows it all is far more dangerous than a person with a three year old driving licences who has joined safespeed hall of excellence and bought Road Craft just has to be safer by default. Or - you could just point him discreetly at this site

If you approach on the left - you would still be watching the antics of the traffic on your right and would have to be prepared to give sufficient signalling and space - in full anticipation that they will wish to take this second exit . Signal your intention and check your road position makes your intention clear as you pass the first exit. I

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