Safe Speed Forums

My vehicle was flashed doing 50 on a dual carriageway. There was a temporary speed restriction of 40 and a coned off area. (You can't call it roadworks, there was no evidence of work that time, or at any of the other times I took that road).
They sent me a NIP, and I wrote and asked for more information to help identify the driver.
(A38 near Lichfield is a bit vague, and they didn't even identify the direction of travel).
Rather than sending me the information, they decided to prosecute under section 172.
The summons gave me very little notice of the hearing and so I've had it postponed, but it is coming up soon.
I still have not seen the photograph.
I read somewhere here that if they do not send you the evidence before the hearing, it is not admissible. Is that correct?
I think they've sent a statement from someone who claims to have seen it, is that sufficient to convict?
Another question is regarding attending court. It is not local, and the cost of attending court will be more than the original fine.
The magistrates have the discretion to reimburse travel costs, but not to compensate my time and energy.
I don't see why I can't submit my defence in an affidavit and let them proceed in my absence, but the clerk refuses saying section 98 of the Magistrate courts act requires that evidence be under oath.
An affidavit is under oath, so what is the problem?
And if it costs you more to submit a defence against an alleged offence than the punishment for that offence, then how can that be considered a fair trial?

Have you been to http://www.pepipoo.com yet?

They are generally a better resource than Safespeed for the nuts and bolts of prosecutions.

Couldn't get on earlier, then managed 5 minutes before I had to go out & thought it polite to have a bit of a read around th site before posting.
Have discovered that a NIP should specify the location to within 1/4 mile, now I need to find mine to check.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autocom=ibwiki&cmd=article&id=19

If you win you claim costs. Make a note of every cost incurred and all your time you spend preparing for the case.

_________________
Andrew.

Yeah, but let's be honest, I don't really have much hope of winning, and costs are at their discretion.


Having checked the NIP, it does give the location: "A38 Rykneld Street, Nr Lichfield(911), to Burton on Trent".

The Prosecution is obliged to furnish you with the evidence of your wrong doing which must include relevant pictures showing speed, your car etc etc etc before the case begins and in any event in time to instruct a solicitor should you so wish. They can get away with providing these on the day and you can ask the bench for a short adjournment to consider the evidence.... DO NOT LET THEM BULLY YOU into going before the Bench without the nec evidence...if the Crown do not produce it...and you MUST make sure you write and request it IN GOOD TIME.... then you are entitled to ask the Bench to dismiss the case ... take copy of your letter to court as proof....Crown are obliged etc as previous and your time and costs to attend court to defend your case MUST be taken into consideration by the Bench when deciding that the Crown have defaulted.....

make sure you look at the date the NIP was sent to you...was it more than 14 days after the offence? if so....it's worthless what ever the case against you may be.....

as to a defence... was the carriageway coned off or were the cones just lined up at the side of the road so that ALL lanes were clear? if the latter, then you may have reasonable cause to have believed that the speed restriction was not in place ie temporary hours for roadworks/speed limit.....

as to affidavit.... sorry but you have to attend court to give evidence under oath... cannot be presented by a piece of paper.... affidavits are used for completely different purpose....

Evidence should be made available 7 days before court IIRC.
You can also ask for a case management hearing if one has not been arranged.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I've been on Pepipoo and they've pointed out that there doesn't need to be an offence (or any evidence of an offence) for a section 172.
All there needs to be is an allegation of an offence.
They've also pointed out that the penalty for the 172 is about double that of the alleged speeding offence, not "similar" as it says on the NIP.
If it comes to it, I will argue that the NIP is misleading, which it clearly is.

The location is still a bit vague. Best I can determine from Google maps is it's about 2.5 miles long, but I'm still not certain.

If you are the person keeping the vehicle and have been served a lawful requirement under s. 172 RTA 1988, it is an offence not to provide the driver's details unless you can satisfy the court that you don't know who was driving and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained the driver's details.
Assuming that you are not in a position to give evidence to that effect (as it would constitute perjury if untrue, and you would have been required to provide information regarding the possible drivers if you could not identify the actual driver).

Whilst it is possible that you might have had a vague locus defence against the original speeding allegation, it is not in itself a defence to an s. 172 allegation, although in some circumstances it might form part of a reasonable diligence defence.
If I know that I drove 200 miles from Plymouth to Reading, if I were to be prosecuted for an incident that was alleged to have occurred during that journey, a NIP would have to specify the locus sufficiently accurately for me to have a fighting chance of recalling the incident - so that I can have a fighting chance of defending myself.
If I know that I was the only driver of that vehicle on that journey, for a requirement to provide the driver's details could stipulate "M4, Wiltshire at <time> and <date>" and I would have sufficient information to name myself as the driver.

The hearing date on the [original] summons is for the plea to be heard. A trial will not take place at that hearing. Either you plead guilty to the offence stated on the summons, and the facts stated in the statement of facts, and are convicted without a trial, or you plead not guilty and a subsequent hearing is scheduled. The CPS do not get involved until a not guilty plea has been entered (heard), and the statutory requirement for disclosure starts then.
The 7 days for an s. 9 witness statement or s. 20 certificate is from the actual trial, not the plea hearing.

All the evidence that they need for an s. 172 conviction is that a notice under s. 172 was sent to you by post, and that no response was received.

If you are pleading not guilty, you must either attend the actual trial, or be represented by a lawyer. That has nothing to do with giving evidence. Evidence can be given in the form of an s. 9 witness statement if the prosecution do not object to it. If they do object to it, you cannot give evidence without them having a chance to cross-examine you.

The statutory penalty for speeding is 3-6 points. For s. 172 offences committed after 24/09/2007 (NIP issued after 27/08/2007), the statutory penalty is 6 points.
It would seem difficult to successfully argue that you were tricked into committing an s. 172 offence because the notice said that the penalties are similar.