Safe Speed Forums

Round-the-table talks involving community leaders and friends of crash victims are being called for in the wake of a road tragedy which claimed three more young lives in the Forest.

Seventeen-year-olds Aaron Howard and Andrew Mudway and 22-year-old Jim Carney were killed when the Vauxhall Cavalier SRi they were in smashed into a shed in Clements End Road on Saturday. Andrew, who lived in Sling, and Coleford district council worker Jim died at the scene.

Aaron, also from Sling, was airlifted to Frenchay Hospital near Bristol, where he later died.

Their deaths bring the toll on the Dean's roads to 11 since January - a figure which has rung alarm bells for community leaders and has left thousands of people across the Forest and beyond mourning loved ones.

Tim Perrin, chief executive of Forest of Dean District Council, said the authority needs to call an urgent meeting to consider some real strides forward.

The council will work with the Forest's new MP, Tory Mark Harper, and other agencies to address the issue.

Mr Harper has already written to BBC TV Top Gear presenters Richard Hammond and Jeremy Clarkson, who both live in Gloucestershire, to get them involved.

Mr Perrin said: "We're very conscious our communities are hurting after the road tragedies of recent months and we as a council are aching.

"I'm sure there are no easy answers but getting all the agencies together with our new MP and a number of young people who have lost friends on the roads may help to generate some ideas and initiatives that will make a difference and help prevent further tragic losses."

Mr Harper has asked for a priority meeting with the county's Chief Constable Tim Brain, putting road safety high on the agenda, and he will be in talks with Tim Perrin tomorrow.

He said: "In the first few months of this year there has been a truly awful death toll on the Forest roads. There doesn't seem to be a simple solution.

"It looks as if it will take a consistent long-term programme of education, especially for younger drivers, to hammer home the impact of a road traffic accident on the individuals concerned and their families.

"I will do whatever I can, working with the local media and the police, to communicate this message.

"If just one life is saved and one family spared the pain involved it will have been worth it."

Mr Harper and county and district councillor Stephen McMillan (Con, Mid Dean) hope the police and DVLA could work together to send hard-hitting information in the post to all drivers in the Forest who passed their test less than three years earlier.

Mr Harper added: "We could emphasise the need to judge the type of roads, weather conditions and driver skill and appropriate speed.

"Perhaps this could incorporate a CD with some graphic images of the aftermath of serious road traffic accidents to try and get the message home."

In the medium-term, Mr Harper is looking for driver training by police or the Institute of Advanced Motorists for young people in the Dean's secondary schools and Royal Forest of Dean College.

Friends of the trio killed in Sling said they were on their way to pick up another friend from Bream when the tragedy happened at about 6.45pm.

On Sunday morning devastated family and friends queued to lay flowers at the site, supporting each other as they wept.

Young people continued to return to the site, which has become a shrine to the boys with baseball caps and a Liverpool FC football signed by pals.

One girl at the roadside said: "The Forest is jinxed."

Four friends, who asked not to be named, added: "They will be greatly missed.

"There have been 11 people killed on the Forest roads. Something needs to be done and a point needs to be got across. It's just ridiculous."

Ann Goodsell, the mum of a teenage driver whose concern sparked The Forester's Join Our Safety Drive campaign said: "Sling is in a state of shock. The boys had a lot of friends here who are completely confused, shocked, upset. The population of Sling has been rocked on its heels."

Neighbour Simon Lewis was one of the first people on the scene after the crash. He said: "I was in the back garden when I heard a lot of engine noise, a big screech of tyres and a huge thump. The car was completely buried in the building. Rubble was all over the road.

"Six or seven of us were there trying to help. I got a crowbar to try and free the passenger in the back. I felt totally helpless."

RAF war hero Frank Bayliss, 82, was the first of the 11 victims on the Forest's roads in January when he was in collision with two vans as he crossed the A4136 near Mitcheldean.

Then bank manager Andrew Preece, 45, died in a car crash near Lydney. Mitcheldean teenagers Liam Sullivan, Chris Williams and Bryan Newman were killed when the car they were in hit a 4X4 on the A4136.

Redmarley mum Susan Berry died in a crash in Pauntley then in March, Milkwall footballer Peter Edwards, 18, died in a crash on the A4136 near Worrall Hill.

Most recently, 17-year-old Gemma Lane, of Coalway, was killed on the B4226 Speech House Road when the car she was a passenger in left the road and hit a tree on April 27.

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

when are the government going to do something about the standards (or lack of) of new drivers? they are taught to pass a test which then gives them a licence to kill themselves, their friends and anyone else who is unlucky enough to be in the vicinity of them when their showing off goes wrong.

they should be restricted with regards to what they can drive
they should be taught how to drive in the first place instead of passing a test
they should be made aware of the dangers of 'impressing friends'

no doubt they would sit and frown at me for this but i have been there and done it. i had sense though and have never injured anyone including myself so now i drive a big powerful sports car but i can handle it. i have full no claims bonus which could be used in conjunction to restrictions. it would also give the police some way of checking what kind of power any individual is permitted to drive by marrying up NCD to insurance groups

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Richie

SSAFA supporter
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=126025031585

Why don't they tell people what actually caused these accidents? The police must know, or have a pretty good idea - after all, they spend hours or even days investigating a fatal RTA.
How do they plan on hammering the message home? By showing pictures of the aftermath? What kind of message are they hammering home? That it's not a good idea to crash?
But how are young people to know how to avoid crashing when they aren't being told how to avoid crashing? When they don't know what actually causes crashes?
Or are they going to leave it to them to find out for themselves - and put up scameras to make money just for good measure?

Cheers
Peter

You cant fight bad luck!

Dont these people know ANYTHING about ANYTHING?????
Ah well, no doubt she went back home and took her mind off it by watching a soap on TV.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

It is generally considered that the Forest of Dean is, in various ways, rather weird

But (echoing Pete317) the only way to tackle this is to exhaustively examine the real causes of each accident. It may be tedious and grab no headlines, but it's what needs to be done.

Sometimes it might highlight the need for road engineering improvements, sometimes the need for targeted police activity, sometimes changes in overall public policy.

But generalised hysteria is never going to be effective.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

It may be hust that though. A run of bad luck. It's a ripe time to slap up a few speed cameras then when things return to normal they can be proclaimed a huge success.

Just the kind of knee-jerk reaction we have seen all around the country.

As has been said the accidents need to be investigated. But not just these, chances are that a fair proportion were freak accidents which will never be repeated. They also need to look at every minor incident.

So speed cameras it will be then.

I am always greatly saddened by this sort of tragedy, especially when it involves young people, but we have to be systematic in our approach if we are to minimise this sort of thing in the future, as Peter317 and PeterE are effectively saying.

Obviously I don't want to jump to conclusions about this accident, but it does sound as if driver error may have been the reason, unless the car failed in some way, or another vehicle precipitated the accident without becoming involved itself. Such things can happen. In my view it is a mistake to blame the road unless there is something seriously deceptive about the road configuration.

Even after 47 years of driving I can still relate to the feelings of young drivers and their tendencies to drive with a bit too much exuberance at times. I am not going to criticise them for that, I was just the same 40-45 years ago, but I was lucky. Even now it frightens me to think of some of the things I did.

In general terms it is no use telling people, especially young people, they mustn't drive fast, because whether the authorities like it or not, they are going to do it. What we need to do is add something to the new driver training system that recognises that and better equips them to stay safe.

As others have said so often before, the current regime teaches people how to pass a driving test, but it does not do enough to help the youngsters to stay safe during the exuberance of those early years.

I believe we must do something to understand them and help them here, not just criticise when it goes wrong and they turn out to be less lucky than I was. Come on everybody, let's try to understand the nature of the problem and do something positive.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

There is an area of research into what are known as Visual Constancies.
This is the ability of the eye/mind to see things which dont exist.
It's the process by which we see movies as moving, when in fact it is a series of still frames, and the ability to visualise optical illusions.

Is this an old woman head down looking left, or a younger woman looking away over her right shoulder?

Forests are an area ripe for illusion, because the trees, and the light showing through them can seem to indicate something which does not exist. One person might see it, another not.
However, if a person is concentrated on the road, and their driving, the effects can be lessened.
A few years back, Graham Hill did a TV series in driving tips - (if anyone remembers it, it featured him driving a mile or so through traffic with a glass of water balanced on the bonnet of his car!!).
It also featured a driver being made to drive between two rows of closely arraigned posts. After a good few yards, the drivers tended to wonder off the line and into the posts!
Maybe this is a factor in your forest crashes. Maybe paul knows how it works?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I have seen that image many times but still cannot make out the old woman.



Bear in mind that forest does not always mean trees. Not being familiar with the area I can't say one way or the other. I do know of areas of Britain with the name forest which have very little tree cover. I also know a few 'moors' which in no way resemble moorland.

But yes, forested areas do pose some unique hazards.

It took me a while to make her out, then all of a sudden the image elements seemed to swim around on the screen and *pop* there she was...

The chin and jawline of the young woman forms the nose of the old woman, the young womans ear-ring (?) is the old womans left eye, and the crease/shading in the young womans neck is the old womans mouth.

Nope. (Thanks for the vote of confidence!). I don't know how this one works - or even if it does work in a general sense!

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I dont know the area either, but one of the reports said they hit a tree.

There is a strobe effect when driving through a regularly planted wood, which can be disorienting. I think the Forest of Dean is unlike that, but the effect may still be there.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I have competed in the Targa Tasmania road rally event 3 times and in the second event I crashed after being disoriented by the sun flashing between the trees on my right. I was distracted and arrived at the corner about 20kph faster than the corner could be taken.

Still managed to go around but the arc took me off the road and into a tree. Actually I was quite proud of myself because the car was not fitted with ABS and I still managed to get 3/4 around the corner, where the arc took us off the road, without skidding.

BTW, had I travelled straight on I would have run into a rock face at a much higher speed (about 90kph) than I hit the tree (about 60kph). Fortunately we both walked away without a scratch.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

Pete317 wrote

It would be very useful if the police routinely issued the report. Far too often the local papers sensationalise some fatal road crash and often imply speeding or tag some other irresponsibility to their story. Passing the crash site one can surmise a few reasons for a crash, but it would be instructive if an unbiased factual report could be read to help others avoid the same mistake.

In other transport industries such as Marine ( in which I work) and Aviation, such reports are routinely available for this purpose, why not road traffic.

Or is it that the more complex scenarios detailed might dilute the PC ‘Speed Kills’ one conclusion fits all ?

Please folks - this notion talks of cars from years gon bye, but is still as relavent today as it ever was.I believe that a poster from Australia has also mentioned somthing similar.

Scenario - Young 17 year old has lessions "to pass the driving test" - he drives in a very carefully controlled environment ( driving school car most probably with passenger controls).

After about 10 lessions (10 hours driving) he sits test and passes.He has learnt in a BMC Mini with an 850 cc engine - top speed ( as i remember) of about 85 mph, and on most roads forgives most errors.
Daddy has pots of money, and as a present for passing test first time buys/ insures etc junior an E type Jag ( dont forget this is set in the stone age.)

Some days later a Panda car calls at Dadies house - Junior couldnt get used to rear wheel drive and the extra power and killed a tree on a nasty bend.
E type is now a sardine can.Junior is now buried in a matchbox (what they could find of him, possibly some cat liked his toes)

Strange that about 30 years on we still have the same saga.
It's not the sale thats causing the problem( sale = test). Its the after sales service. As far as novice driver is concerned its learn by damage limitation.
Buy a car and you've got the resources of the firm trying to help you - pass your test - who helps you now - aint people like Ian h /IG/ ETC - they're a dying breed . You're lucky to find one who has the time to point out your errors/help you on the way to be a better driver .
I did many moons ago - he changed the way i think about driving.
After 39 years/max ncb /no points -insurance companies kissing my bum i say thanks to thatTraffic polis and try to pass on his advice.

I have got a lot of time for the (especially ) the traffic BIBS on this site - I ve got the experience - they've got the training (and more importantly the ticket book).

When my youngest passed her test -i sat in with her on a few trips to town - pointed out some things i know she had not seen . Mrs b does likewise - she has no licence, but can drive - and has been passenger for 33+ years - thats an awful lot of experience, especialy as i have trained her to be my second set of eyes.She says look out - i react. She says it passes the boredom of long journeys.I trust her instincts -
The problem now is how to get new drivers to realise that passing the test is the first step on the way to learning to drive.
I have not passed IAM - think it's too rigid and stereo typed - prefer to get tips from people like IG -think that after about 39 years , with a NCB of 75%+ and protected NCB and no points I've learnt some things - im not a flat cap - get up my rear end when im driving sensibly - i'l say bibi to all but a race driver -coz i learned to handle a car on highland roads -single track with nasty corners - make one mistake in november and you wait till next day.
So we need some way of progressing drivers
BIBS - ANY ANSWERS

I taught my daughter to drive. I then taught her how to survive. I then reinforced this over and over again in many more driving lessons. "Get your vision up" "Tell me what you see and what hazards lie ahead" etc. I then took her to a race track and showed her what happens when you lose control and then I got her to deliberately drive too fast around corners with the resulting spin.

Then I sent her to a driving school so she could be taught how to pass the driving test.

She is now a nurse and is in the process of doing an ambulance driving course and the instructor has been genuinely amazed at how well she handles the van, how smooth she is when braking and cornering and how much better she is than several others with 4 times her experience on the road. She turned 22 in April.

I enjoy being driven by her and feel completely safe, even when she drives over the “speed limit”.

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Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!

You can't change human nature, and teenagers rebel against authority. The more that roads are clamped down with "traffic calming" and scamera, the more that younger drivers will "go for it" when they get a chance - and some not so young drivers too... Sometimes the affect of over the top "traffic calming" is to force me into driving a lot more aggressively than I would otherwise have done.

M3RBMW I think has the right approach to it, because the only thing that teaches people how to really drive safely is to have experienced what it is like beyond the limit. Kids don't drive stupidly fast because they want to die, they think that they are safe, and "up yours" to the nanny state that takes all the fun out of life.

I am sure that all of us with years of experience have had a few close calls where we got caught out - for most these didn't result in an accident, while for a few they didn't walk away from it. My most memoriable one was driving a 1.0L Metro in Surrey from the Dunsfold Aerodrome (where Top Gear is now made, but used to be BAe site) to Godalming. It was a fine autumn day and the road was damp, and as I went into a tight right-hand turn at a reckless 25mph (60mph limit) I found my backside passing my left shoulder. Fortunately there is a gravel run-off area and absolutely no damage was done to anything but my ego. Lesson to me was to really be careful on damp leaf covered roads. But the key thing is that nothing in my instruction, and nothing about blindly sticking to the speed limits would have stopped this happening, and if the corner had been the other way around I would have been backwards on the wrong side of the road....

I personally doubt whether that would make any differece, you only have to take a look round town to see the max-power brigade in their 1.0l Peugeot 106's to know they could have a serious accident in any car. Lower powered cars may even increase some types of accidents since they don't have the power to overtake safely. How many young lads will have 'gone for it', only to find they are overtaking at a very slow pace. Not wanting to be sissy they will keep going when really they want to be getting back on the right side of the road before a bend.

I also don't think the E-Type story is all that accurate, I learnt to drive in a 1.0l Micra, but a month after my 18th birthday I bought a 2.8i Capri(RWD of course) and I haven't crashed it - or even come close. Besides, insurance is coming pretty close to self-regulating this anyway. One thing I would crack down on is the instances where mummy or daddy insures a car for them in their name and puts the 17 year lad as a named driver. I've worked for a leading insurance company so as I'm sure most people are aware that it is strictly forbidden unless the named driver is only an occasional user of the vehicle. Maybe, just maybe, if a young lad knew that he could build his own NCB up and get much cheaper insurance he may take less risks. I would have though self-preservation would have worked better myself, but noticing the extreme reluctance of anyone to give up their NCB makes me wonder.......

All kinds of visual processing issues in a forest. Usually darker, can create a kind of short-sightedness even in people with good vision. Less light around to bounce off objects so edge perception (where an object starts and finishes) is poorer. Visual field in a forest could play around with depth perception cues. Strobing effect of sunlight as others have mentioned.

Also, more blind bends, far more chance of an inappropriate speed, considering the 'only go as fast as the distance you can see to brake in' rule.

Good chance of greater speed differentials. A 'closed in' driving environment (structures/trees close to either side of the driver) increases the sensation of speed. Some will slow down more, some will be stimulated to drive like a WRC driver.

Also, less light on road, more likely to be wet/icy/. More chance of tighter bends? Off camber apexes caused by root growth?



I drive to work with my apple on the passenger seat. If I find it rattling around the footwell I know I haven't been smooth enough!